Newmarket Oral History: Bruce Carnes

Bruce Carnes (b. 1926) speaks to interviewer Virginia Macleod. He has lived his entire life in Randwick, where his connection to horses began at age 14 while helping on a milk run. After buying his first horse, he steadily built a lifetime career training and educating horses, largely teaching himself by watching skilled handlers. He became adept at breaking horses in, training them to harness, managing them in traffic, shoeing, filing teeth, and diagnosing and treating most ailments without a vet. He rented small stables around Randwick, including in Challis Lane, and at times managed up to ten horses on his own. His daily routine of exercising, feeding, and grooming reflects a hands-on, traditional approach to horsemanship. Bruce rode often at Centennial Park, which in his youth was full of riders and gymkhanas, unlike today. He trained various types of horses, especially trotters—his favourite—and re-educated many for polo or show work. Sales were usually by word of mouth, though he occasionally sold horses overseas. Bruce attended Inglis sales regularly, remembering key auctioneers and the changing atmosphere over the decades. He also recalls a time when horses were common in Randwick’s streets and treated as everyday transport, a contrast to the far fewer horses he sees around the area today.

                 Today is Monday, the 17th of July 2017 and I'm speaking with Bruce Carnes, long-time resident of Randwick and this interview is for the Newmarket Stables Oral History Project.  My name is Virginia Macleod.

                 Bruce, could you tell me when you were born?

                 Yes.  1926.

                 And where were you born?

                 Waverley.

                 Waverley, right.

                 Yes.

                 At home or in the hospital?

                 In the hospital.

                 And were you the first child for your parents?

                 Yes.

                 And were there other brothers and sisters later?

                 Yes, two sisters and a brother.

                 And what did your father do – what was his work?

                 He was in the navy.  He went to two wars.

                 First World War and Second World War?

                 Yeah.

                 And your mother, did she work?

                 No, no.

                 She looked after the home, though?

                 Yes, yeah.

                 And where were you living then?

                 We were living in Earl Street, Randwick.

                 Right.  And did you grow up there all the time or did you move around?

                 No.  We moved up to Clovelly Road, Randwick.

                 Right, still in Randwick?

                 Yes, yeah.

                 And which school did you go to?

                 Randwick Public.

                 And did you go on to secondary school?

                 Yes, yeah.

                 Where did you go for that?

                 Well, they called it intermediate.

                 Intermediate, yeah.

                 That’s as far as I went, yeah.

                 And that was in Randwick too?

                 Yes, all in Randwick, yeah.

                 And how old were you when you left school?

                 Fourteen. 

                 Fourteen.  And what did you decide to do then?

                 Well, I hadn't decided, really.  I got a job offsiding on a milk cart and during that time I bought a horse and I stabled it in Randwick and then I got the stables to use and started from there, looking after horses, and I went from there to everything I did after.

                 And so you got a horse and can you remember much about that horse?  What was it like?

                 Well, he was a nice horse but he was a bit of a trick, you know.  He was a nice horse to ride but he had a few tricks, you know, and I broke him into harness and I used to drive him and he used to go well.  And then I sold him to – I think he was a Canadian comedian and that was the end of that horse.  And then I've sort of went from there, started looking after horses for people and then I did all these other things.

                 When you had your first horse, where did you go riding?

                 Centennial Park - I was very close to the Centennial Park.  In fact, that was my office.  I think I rode more horses round Centennial Park and been round there more times than anyone.

                 You know it like the back of your hand.

                 Yes, yes.

                 And were there many other people doing that – was it a big riding place then?

                 Oh, yes, there was hundreds of horses.  Yeah, you'd go down there on the weekend and there’d be hundreds of horses going round.  And every month they used to have a gymkhana – once a month it was – and they used to get a very big roll-up.

                 So that was all mostly people from around like Kensington?

                 Around the area, yeah, even out to Maroubra, Kensington, all that sort of thing, yeah.  And some people’d even come from further out, just to come to the gymkhana there, which was pretty popular at the time because there wasn’t that many.

                 And they brought their own horses or to watch?

                 Yeah, brought their own horse, yeah.

                 And did you compete?

                 Yeah, I used to compete in a lot of the sporting events they had.

                 What sort?

                 Oh, well there was flag and bending races and there was knobbly races, like a saddle event where you had to leave your saddle up one end and you had to gallop down, saddle the horse up – gallop down bareback and then saddle the horse up and gallop back.

                 Wow.

                 And there was a rescue race where you had to gallop down and pick up another rider and gallop back.

                 With the two of you on the horse?

                 Yeah, yeah.  There was a lot of those sort of events and I used to win quite a lot of them.

                 Sounds good fun.

                 Yeah, yeah, we had good fun.

                 And good spectator sport too.

                 Yeah.

                 So that was once a month.  And then did you ride the horse every day?

                 Yes, yeah.

                 And did you go early morning or did you go after your milk run?

                 Oh, after the milk run, yeah.  And then I started looking after horses and the park was always where I exercised, which was very good because it was only a couple of minutes into the park where I was.

                 So you didn’t use the Randwick Racecourse at all?

                 No, no.  Well, that wasn’t allowable anyway; it was only for the racehorses.

                 And you had your horse at a particular stable – where was that?

                 It was the corner of Clovelly Road and Wentworth Street and that’s where I started off.

                 And how come you came to own the stables or take them over?

                 Well, I didn’t own them, I rented them because I was asked to look after a horse and then I got another one and then it just went from there.

                 Suddenly you had lots of horses?

                 I did all sorts of things, you know.  I educated horses and broke in horses to saddle and harness all like round this area in Randwick and then Centennial Park.

                 And were most of the horses you were looking after, were they for people’s riding recreation - - -

                 Yes, yes.

                 - - - or working horses?

                 No, recreation horse, yeah.

                 But not racehorses?

                 No, no.

                 And there were a lot of people just riding there, I guess.

                 That’s right, yeah, yeah.

                 So you were by then – we’re talking about fourteen; about 1940 was this? 

                 Yes, somewhere there, yeah.

                  And so how did you learn how to train horses, or did you teach yourself?

                 I taught meself and just observation of other people and just one thing went to another.  And I don’t know whether I had - - -

                 So you feel you had a natural ability that just came on?

                 Well, I must have to be able to do the things I did and as I got older I started to break in horses, saddle and harness.

                 And how soon was that – were you still quite young?

                 Yes, yeah.  And educate horses for shows and all that sort of thing.

                 And could you describe to me a bit how you broke in a horse for harness and saddle, the process?

                 Well, breaking a horse into saddle, you go through a process of mouthing it.

                 Which is-?

                 Teaching it to respond to turn and stopping.

                 Put a bridle on?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 So you walk it round, do you, doing that?

                 You do it in a yard, yes, and that’s what’s called “mouthing” a horse and you learn it to stop and back up and then you lead off another saddle horse in the yard several times and then you ride it.  You ride in the yard a few times and then I used to take them out in Centennial Park and that was the best place to educate a horse because they saw everything.

                 Because they could see other horses?

                 Yes, and a good ride out used to make them, yeah.

                 So how long would that take, the whole thing of the mouthing and then the walking in the yard and riding?

                 Two or three weeks to do it properly.  I used to take me time with them and breaking in the horse to harness you went through the same process of mouthing and all that sort of thing and then you had a quiet horse that you put in your gig, which was a long shaft gig, and you put the young horse that you were breaking in on the shaft and take it for a run around to get it used to the gig and everything behind it and all that sort of thing.

                 So it was behind the gig?

                 No, on the side.

                 On the side.

                 Yeah.

                 And one was in the shaft, the experienced horse?

                 And one was beside it and I'd drive all round Randwick.

                 The streets?

                 Yes, and Centennial Park and through Bondi Junction when trams were running and it’s altogether different now.           

                 But that must have been quite a lot for a horse to cope with, trams and cars.

                 Well, you did it by stages and you gave them a chance to get used to all these sort of things.  That’s the whole thing of a breaking a horse in is getting it used to all these things around them and all that sort of thing and patience.

                 And do you talk to them when you're doing that or do you handle them, do you stroke - - -

                 Well, with a harness horse you have to talk to them a bit, yes.

                 That sounds nice.

                 With a saddle horse, you communicate with your legs and the reins.

                 Right.  It’s different, yeah.  And the horses that you were looking after, so the ones that you were training for a gig, were they going to be working horses for people?

                 Well, there was all sorts.  There was ponies and pacers and trotters and just ordinary saddle horses.  Sometimes a horse is a bit flighty or a bit hard to handle.  If you gave them a run on the shaft, it used to help them a bit and steady them down.

                 So when you're looking after a horse for someone, how did they pay you – what sort of wage or fee did you take?

                 Well, I used to charge three pound a week.

                 For each horse?

                 Yes.

                 And did that include you feeding them and grooming them?

                 Yeah, looking after them, yeah, the whole lot.

                 So how many horses did you have at a time in that stables?

                 Well, it varied.  I started off with a small stable of three or four horses.  Then I acquired other stables just down the lane and I was able to keep another eight horses there.

                 And what was the name of the lane?

                 Challis Lane.

                 Challis Lane, right.  So you had about eight, ten?

                 Yes, yeah.

                 And you could manage that on your own?

                 Yes, yeah.

                 But it took all day?  What sort of hours did you work?

                 Long hours.

                 Long hours, yeah.  Tell me about a typical day then?  When did you get up in the morning?

                 I've got up early all my life; I've never slept in; even now I don't.

                 So how early is early?

                 Five o'clock.

                 Five o'clock, right.

                 Yeah.

                 So then what would you do first in the stables?

                 Well, feed them, then you clean the stables out.

                 What do you feed them first though?

                 Well, there was different types of feed: there was bran and chaff and oats and hay, depending on the horse.  Then I would exercise them, bring them back.  I had a round yard next door to the stables where I was able to give them a roll in the sand and then clean them and put them back in the stable.

                 And how many could you exercise at a time? 

                 Well, sometimes I'd ride one and lead one, sometimes I'd lead two, depending on what they needed.  Some horses needed more work than others.

                 And how do you know how much exercise a horse needs?

                 Well, you’ve got to use your own judgement.

                 It’s experience, yeah.

                 When you ride a horse and he’s a bit lively and he probably wants a bit more and then the other one that’s quiet doesn’t need a lot.

                 Right, so you had to work all that out.

                 And then you'd get a thoroughbred horse that raced to educate it to be a show hack, which used to take a bit of time too.

                 So how did you have to change it from a racehorse to a show - - -

                 Well, you’ve got to settle it down first and then educate it to do ringwork like changing legs and all sorts of workouts.

                 So this is bringing it towards dressage, that kind of thing?

                 Yeah, yeah, leading up to dressage, yeah.

                 So you were very versatile, really.

                 Well, I was very lucky that I was because I could do all these things.  Not only that, apart from the breaking-in I could shoe a horse - - -

                 You're a farrier too?

                 - - - and do their teeth and I was pretty handy.

                 And how did you learn about doing their teeth?

                 Well, I learnt off an old chap that used to go round doing teeth.

                 What, you watched him when he came to your stables?

                 Yeah, well, I used to have to hold the horses while he did them and he was a knowledgeable old man and he was pretty good and that’s why I learnt.

                 And a horse has a very big head and jaw, so how do you hold it when you're working on the teeth?

                 Well, you put on what you call a mouth gag which holds their mouth open and you use a rasp, a handle about that long - - -

                 A foot long, yeah.

                 - - - a horse grows rough edges on the outside of his top teeth and on the inside of the bottom ones and you file them to level it off.

                 And it keeps growing so you’ve got to do it - - -

                 Well, when horses are stabled up on hard feed, they're not grinding their teeth up so much as what they are in grass, you know.

                 And I guess out in a paddock they sort of rub it on a fence or chew on wood and other things, did they?

                 No, no, just that they get sharp edges and they cut into their gum and if you're riding them it annoys them.

                 And so you did the teeth and then the same with the shoeing the horses?  You just watched the farrier do it and then did it yourself?

                 Yeah, yeah.  When I started training trotters, I had to do more shoeing because they require a lot of constant shoeing; they're very hard on shoes.  And there’s a bit of an art too because it’s different to shoeing – a thoroughbred horse is more straight out but with a pacer, a trotter, the shoes are weighted and all that sort of thing to help their gait.

                 What, they're heavier to make them walk differently?

                 Yeah.  Well, with a trotter, a trotter has a heavy shoe in front and a light shoe behind, and a pacer has a light shoe in front and a heavy shoe behind, so I learnt quite a lot, actually.

                 Yeah, you're a mine of information.  I had no idea looking at them.

                 Yeah, it’s called experience and that’s the only way you can learn with horses.

                 And did you buy the shoes then readymade, sort of different weights?

                 You could buy readymade shoes and you had to fit them up to fit the horse, you know.

                 And how do you change the shape?  Do you have to heat them up with a blowtorch?

                 Well, you could cold shoe but I did have a forge which I could heat shoes up at times and I would anvil the shape, the shoes, and had also a big vice to put the shoe in if you want to file it up, all that sort of thing, yeah.

                 So you got all the equipment.  Was that in the stables or did you have to buy that as you went along?

                 I bought them, yeah.

                 So you had quite a big enterprise quite quickly.

                 Well, no, I did a lot of things over a long time.

                 So how many years were you in that particular stable?  Did you stay there a long time or did you move to another stable?

                 Say about fourteen till I was about sixty five, I suppose, something like that.

                 Really?

                 Yeah, a long time.

                  … a long time.  So most of your working life you had those stables.

                 I had a bad fall in Centennial Park: a horse fell on top of me and then I got arthritis in the hip and then I had to have a hip replacement and that stopped me from riding.

                 That was when you were in your sixties or earlier?

                 Yeah, just about before sixty.  I tried to carry on but I found it a bit hard, you know.  And I've had three total hip replacements and I'm walking around fairly good now but I was on a walking stick for a long time but with swimming and walking it keeps me going.

                 You got your strength back?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 So you had the same stables all your life then?

                 Yeah, yeah.  But when I moved up to next door to Inglis’, we had a couple of stables at the back there.  Me wife used to perhaps show horses and we used to keep a couple of horses there.

                 So you moved house but you kept the other stables in Challis Lane?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 Tell me about – let’s just go to that now – when you moved up near Inglis.  When was that, roughly?  How old were you, do you remember?

                 I was in me early forties, I think.

                 And you'd got married before then?

                 Just before, yeah, two or three years before that, yeah.

                 And which street did you live in near Inglis.

                 We lived in Middle Street.

                 Which number?

                 117.

                 And did that back onto the Inglis stables?

                 No, it backed onto – it’s now the carpark but it used to be what they call the bullring where they used to exercise the horses.

                 So we’re just looking at a 1942 aerial map and it shows Middle Street and just at the back of your house near that big tree by the look of it - - -

                 That’s right, yeah.

                 - - - what was it called, the track?

                 The bullring.

                 Bullring, right.

                 Yes, and it was a sandy area where they used to work the horses.  Like the breakers used to have part of Inglis’, stable the horses and use the yards and broke the horses in there and they worked them in the bullring.

                 And it’s quite a big oval track, isn't it?

                 Yeah, it was.  Yeah, it was quite good.

                 So they'd do the things that you used to do, mouthing them and walking them?

                 That’s right, yeah.

                 And they also like sand.  Why do horses like rolling in sand – what does it do for them?

                 Well, you can't have them on the bitumen because they'd slip over with iron shoes and all that sort of thing, so the sand is easy to maintain.  You just put a bit of water on it to keep the dust down.

                 And that’s good for riding round?

                 Yes, yeah.

                 But there’s also a thing where you let the horses roll in sand, don't you?

                 Well, you used to have a clean yard with clean sand in it for them to roll, which they like to do.

                 Yeah.  Do you know why they like to do that?

                 Well, it’s like having a shower to them but it’s relaxing and they enjoy it.

                 So you lived just here and so did you just have an arrangement with Inglis that you could use the track or did everybody in that area use the track?

                 Just about everyone but mainly the horses that were stabled in Inglis’; they were the main ones that used it, yeah.  But that big fig tree was right at the back of our place.

                 Right.  I can see it’s a big one in the photo.

                 Yeah.

                 And in this area here, which is sometimes called Struggletown, were there other stables?

                 Yes, there were stables.  There was stables right opposite me and then next door there was another lot and round Botany Street there was a couple of lots and in Jane Street there was stables.  Then in Hay Street there was a big stable.

                 That’s across Barker Street, is it?

                 Yeah.  Livestock Transport had a big stable there, very big, and opposite that stable there was Doug Lonsdale.  Next door to him was Pat Murray.

                 And they both had big stables?

                 Yeah, yeah.  There was quite a lot of horses just in that area.

                 Were they trainers

                 Yeah, horse trainers; trained gallopers, yeah.

                 So there were a lot of you around there with horses?

                 Yeah.

                 So the stables that you had there, how many – you said you kept two horses there?

                 I kept three at times.

                 Three there?

                 Yeah.  I had a little Shetland pony. [Richard]

                 Was that for your children?

                 Well, I bought him as a two year old and I broke him into saddle and harness and I had him; he was thirty nine when he died.

                 Wow.

                 Yeah.  But I did a lot with him.  I used to lend him to hospitals when they'd have a fete and all that sort of thing.

                 What, for children’s rides?

                 Yeah.  And the children that had something wrong with them, they'd bring them out in a bus and I'd bring the ponies out and they could have a look at the ponies and the ones that were able to sit on I'd put on, but some were in wheelchairs.

                 What, and you'd walk them round on the pony?

                 Yes, yeah.  But they'd come out to see the horse and they loved to pat them and all that sort of thing.  And I put him in the back of a car and took him out to – a friend of mine managing a hotel out there and he was getting money for charity and we put him in the back of the car and took him out there.

                 Where was that – where did you go to?

                 Petersham.

                 Petersham, right, yeah.

                 Yeah, and took him in the pub and led him around and they got a collection, all that sort of thing.

                 Wonderful.

                 It was a great party.

                 And when you say you put him in the back of the car, it’s that small?  It was a big car?

                 No, it was only a medium size car.

                 A Holden?

                 Yeah, but I got him in there.  But I could put him up on the back of me ute: just put his front feet up and he’d hop up into it.

                 He’d jump up?

                 Yeah, yeah.  I took him down to Randwick Racecourse a few times.  They were having some sort of party down there and took him down there for the kids.  No, I did a lot with him and he was a great pony.

                 Lovely.  And your wife had her own horse too?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 So you had a horse, you had the pony and she had a horse?

                 Yeah.  She used to go to shows.

                 Was she into dressage?

                 No, just ordinary show work.

                 I just wanted to ask you, Bruce, a bit about this neighbourhood here around Newmarket Stables.

                 Yeah.  Well, there was a lot of people round there with an interest in the horses, apart from the trainers and the people that worked in the stables and that sort of thing. 

                 You mean they had a horse themselves?

                 Well, yeah, there was some people had a horse – there’s quite a few, actually, round the area but just in that small area there there was a lot of horses.

                 A lot of horses?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 And was there a vet there?

                 Yes.  There was a vet in Botany Street – his name was Roy Stewart – and the was a vet in Gordon Street, Randwick – he was Viv Davis – and there was a vet in King Street called Tom Doyle.  They were the three main vets.

                 Yeah, they were the main horse vets, really, we’re talking?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 And presumably you had to get the vet in from time to time.

                 Well, not very often.  I could do a lot of things meself but I was very friendly with Viv Davis who was a very good vet on lameness and all that sort of thing.

                 So if you had a problem and you couldn’t resolve it, you might get him in to have a closer look?

                 Yeah, yes.

                 What other problems would they come in for?

                 Not a lot of problems, actually.  Anything serious you had to get the vet but a lot of things I could do meself - you know, I had a good idea of what was wrong with the horse.  The first thing you'd do was take their temperature; If they're showing a temperature, well then you'd go from there but mainly you don't have a lot of trouble.

                 What sort of things would a temperature indicate?

                 Well, it could be lots of things.  It could be colic – that’s like a pain in the belly sort of thing.

                 Digestion, yeah.

                 Anything at all that’s likely to rise or come from the temperature.  So the first thing you do is take the temperature and then you go from there and if it’s serious, well you get the vet.

                 And, what, you mean if the temperature was really high?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 But otherwise it just might indicate a bit of problem but not serious?

                 Nothing serious, yeah.

                 And what other problems apart from colic and lameness would a horse have?

                 Well, they're about the main things, yeah.  If you worm them regularly, that helps a lot.  And that’s the main thing is worming, teeth and feeding.

                 And with the lameness, did you give them heat packs or strap them or what?

                 All depends on what it was.  Now they’ve got lots of pastes you can give a horse, like a painkiller sort of thing and a tranquiliser.

                 But in those days there probably weren't so many remedies, were there?

                 There weren't.  No, no, it’s all changed.  I can remember to worm a horse you had to give them a course of benzene powder and then you gave them a physic(?) for the worm and a bot bomb(?) - that’d clean them right out.

                 Yeah, just blast them.

                 Well, now they tube them.  They put a tube down into their - - -

                 Do they?

                 Yeah, they tube them, yeah, so it’s a lot simpler.  Yeah, it was a bit barbaric then but you used to get the results.

                 That was all you could do.

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 So you got to know some of the other families around there?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 And like you did they have children?

                 Yes, but they weren't all into horses.

                 And were they mostly working locally?

                 Yeah, that’s right.

                 And was your house an old house?  Because some of the houses there are very old.

                 Very old, yeah.

                 Yours was?

                 Yeah, very old.

                 Was it timber or weatherboard or stone?

                 It was stone and brick at the front.  They'd put the front on it and the veranda brick but it was pretty old and it had originally a slate roof.

                 Slate?

                 Not slate, shingles.

                 Shingles, timber shingles?

                 Yeah, and then like they'd put the corrugated iron over it.

                 On top?

                 Yeah.

                 Interesting.

                 Yeah, it was an old place.

                 And could you see that from inside?

                 No, you couldn’t see it from inside.

                 And how many rooms was it?

                 There was two bedrooms and a balcony that was a bedroom.

                 What, closed in?

                 There was three bedrooms, a loungeroom and then you had the kitchen and the bathroom and the laundry and all that sort of thing.

                 And were the laundry and bathroom out the back or were they in the house?

                 Originally, the toilet was out the back and we had it inside into the bathroom there and the laundry was inside.  But we had a big backyard that was on the side of the house, very big, and at the end of that just near the fig tree there I built some stables, although just like a cover-in sort of shed thing but it worked as a stable and that and we were able to keep horses there.

                 Right, so you put that up for the horses?

                 Yeah, yeah.  And there was a yard attached to that so they had the yard too.

                 Right.  And some of the other stables, had they been there for a long time?

                 A long time, a long time, yeah.

                 So they weren't just recently put up, yeah.

                 Yeah.

                 So it’s a very intense horse area just around there, isn't it?

                 It was, yes, yes.

                 But not everyone worked in the horse industry?

                 No, no.

                 Do you remember any other things that people did there, your neighbours, what sort of work they did?

                 I couldn’t.

                 You don't remember.  That’s all right.

                 They done all sorts of things, really.  One chap that lived opposite, he was an arborist.  That’s what my son does now – he’s a qualified arborist.  And down a bit further there was an estate agent; we bought the house through him.  And there was an old couple, retired, next door and then there was a young couple next door to that.  And round the corner there was an Italian bloke and he had a little pony and he used to drive in a little gig sort of thing.

                 With the pony pulling it?

                 Yeah.  And there was a few other saddle horses people had round there in different places.

                 When you lived in this area, did people refer to it as ‘Struggletown’ or not really - it wasn’t called that?  I mean now they call that area ‘Struggletown’.

                 They used to call it ‘Struggletown’ but no one ever mentioned it.

                 Right.  You sort of knew but you never said ‘Oh, I live in Struggletown?’

                 No, no.

                 But the name was floating around there?

                 That’s right, yeah.

                 Just before we go on – so you lived there and you lived near Challis Lane and how many other places have you lived in Randwick in your life after you left Middle Street?

                 I left Middle Street.  I got divorced, left Middle Street, and I went to live at my sister’s place at Coogee for about two years.  Then she sold her place and we got a flat in Francis Street – that’s down the bottom of the street here – and I was there for nineteen years.

                 And that was you and your son?

                 Well, he came in later but I was there on me own.  Me sister moved up to Coffs Harbour and she died up there, unfortunately, and we got a month’s notice to get out.  So we had a look around and we got this place and that’s about it.

                 So you’ve stayed very local, haven't you?

                 Yeah.

                 So let’s have a bit of a talk about how you came to be involved with the Inglis site and the Newmarket Stables, apart from using their track you mentioned but were you buying horses there?

                 I think I was about nineteen or twenty and I had to take a horse up there to be sold, a thoroughbred horse.  They used to have a tried horse sale and I led him up off another horse and he wasn’t sold and I had to take him back home.

                 Did he belong to you?

                 No, no.  He was a racehorse, a thoroughbred horse.  They used to have what you called a ‘tried horse sale’.

                 What does that mean, a ‘tried horse’?

                 There’s horses that raced and they're being sold and there’d be also stallions and mares.  And I was always on the lookout for a horse to make a show horse, which is very difficult, so I'd go up there, and there’d probably be three hundred horses which I would look at and lucky if I found one that would be suitable.

                 And how could you tell – what were you looking for?

                 Well, I had an eye for what I wanted and I knew what was required for a show horse and I was able to retrain them, like educate them.

                 Is it to do with their behaviour?

                 Yeah.  Some are a bit lively and they’ve got to be settled down and that takes a while, you know; you’ve got to be patient with them.  And I bought some nice horses there but they're very difficult to find.

                 Is that because it’s difficult to train a show horse full stop, or because after they’ve raced it’s difficult to change their habits?

                 Well, they’ve got to have the right temperament for a start and some breeds are a bit sort of fiery.

                 So they'd never be good for a show horse?

                 Yeah.  I knew some of those breeds and I had a good eye for what I wanted and that’s what I stuck to and I found that was the whole idea of it.

                 And when you go to look at them, do you physically touch them, feel their muscles?

                 No, no.

                 You're not allowed to touch them?

                 Oh, you can. 

                 You can but you don't?

                 You can go in the stable with them.

                 You'd just watch them walking around?  Tell me what you do.

                 First of all, a horse had to have a good head.  I never bought a horse with a bad head.

                 And what makes a good head?

                 Well, the shape of his head, his jaw, flat across the forehead, good wide forehead, and ears set properly.  So I'd go round and I'd pick out the horse that had a good head, then I'd go over and they'd have to have a good rein – that’s the length of their neck.  A horse gets his personality from his front: that’s his head, neck and shoulder.  You can't alter that but you can alter the hindquarters by putting on condition or something like that but you can't alter the front and that’s where a horse gets his personality from for a show horse.  And not only that, a horse with a good rein, he’s the best horse to ride.

                 And so you'd look through three hundred horses and maybe only find one?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 That’d take quite a bit of time, wouldn’t it?

                 Oh, yes.  In later years they used to have three or four tried horse sales – they used to have a tried horse sale every three months and that’s how I used to go through all those horses.  I wasn’t too keen to look at yearlings, which people had asked me to look at, because you can't tell whether they're any good or not.  I'd say ‘Look, I can tell you their confirmation, if it’s all right, but I can't tell you whether it’s going to be any good or not’.  No one can.  There's only one way you can tell they're any good: just put them in a race, put your money on them and they win and a well-known jockey told me that.

                 So a yearling’s never raced so you just don't have any measure?

                 Yeah, there’s no way.  Like, people go and give millions for them and they're no good.

                 What, because they’ve been bred by a good racehorse?

                 Well, you’ve got the breeding and everything and probably got the confirmation but they haven't got the ability.

                 And the confirmation is what you described about the head and the neck? 

                 Well, the whole lot of the horse, the body and legs and everything.

                 So there was only any point in buying tried horses as far as you were concerned?

                 Yeah, another thing too: you had to buy a horse that didn’t have any blemishes like a big joint or a big scar and all those sort of things because when they went into the show ring they were judged and the judge would look at those things and go against it.

                 So their look’s a part of it?

                 Yeah, yeah.  No, it wasn’t easy because they were hard to find.

                 Yeah, it sounds like it’s very rare to find a good one.

                 Yeah, well it was.  Just as hard to buy a good show horse as what it is a racehorse.

                 And so you were up there, what, four times a year then when they had the sales all the time?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 And did you get to know the people there, the staff?

                 Yes, yeah, knew a lot of them over the years, yeah.

                 And Mr Jack Inglis, did you know him?

                 Yes, well John Inglis but I was going there when his father was the auctioneer.  So that’s a long while ago.

                 That was Reg?

                 That’s Reg, Reg Senior.  And then there was a Reg Junior later, after John.  Reg Junior was Dick Inglis’ son.

                 So tell me about watching them auction.  They all have different styles?  I mean it’s a real show, isn't it, being an auctioneer?

                 Yes.  Well, a good auctioneer’s got to keep you occupied and they keep the sale going with the horses all ready to come in, no holdups and someone leads them round the ring and you’ve got the auctioneer in his box and that’s how they do it.

                 But did they all have the same style or were they all different, Reg Senior and Reg Junior and John Inglis?

                 Yeah, they all had more or less their own style.  Old Reg, he was good.  John was good too and young Reg I thought was good.  Now they have four or five auctioneers.

                 Different auctioneers?

                 Yes, in a sale – it’s all changed.

                 Family members don't do it, yeah.

                 I go back to the time when old Reg Inglis was the auctioneer and a coloured chap named Coco Jeffries [G. K. ‘Coco’ Jeffries ], he used to do all the leading the horses around the ring and he’d lead most of them.  Now, most of the breeders have got their own leaders and it’s changed a lot.  And when John Inglis was – after Coco Jeffries there was Harry Meyer and he was one of the breakers that was using Inglis’ to break in and he used to break in all Tommy Smith’s horses and he’d lead them in, and John Inglis was the auctioneer.  Then Harry retired and went to Mudgee to live and Max Crockett, he took over and he was leading them.  Now, Max is a legend, up near Mudgee as a trainer and a breaker and everything, and his son [Cameron Crockett] is now training, but Max used to come to my stable when he was a little fella.

                 Really?

                 Yeah.

                 What, come and ride or look at them?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 Or were you teaching him?

                 He started off riding there and he became a very good breaker and he used to break in [for] Coanka [owner] at Gooree studs at Mudgee.  I don’t know how many years he broke in for them and like he retired and he still trained a couple of horses but he wasn’t too good in health there for a while but now he’s got his son, Cameron, who’s doing quite well.  But with Max, he was the most likeable kid and I saw his grandfather on a horse, I saw his father, his two uncles, Max himself and Cameron.

                 Four generations.

                 All on horse, yeah.

                 And they were all natural riders?

                 Yeah, all pretty good, yeah.

                 And did you teach Max, do you think?  He must have learned from being at the stables with you.

                 I think he learned a bit himself.  I put him on a lead on a couple of thoroughbred horses I had there and he was very capable.  He turned out very good, yeah.

                 Do you think it’s an innate thing, that some people just can manage horses and work with them and others don't have that?

                 That’s right, yeah.

                 But do you think it comes because – well, you had no background in horses at all, did you?

                 No, no.

                 It just came?

                 Yeah.

                 But someone like Max, if all his family rode he would have had a lot of exposure to horses.

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 But you can't predict who’s going to be a good trainer.

                 No, you can't, no.  Some go on and some don't but Max done very well; I was very proud of him.

                 So you’ve been going to the Inglis’ sales most of your working life.

                 Yeah.

                 And I was just interested to know how the whole sales process has changed.  You said a little bit about that.

                 Well, originally the yearlings, they only used to have a yearling sale at Easter.  Now, they have one in January, yearlings, and they have the tried horses three or four times a year and a broodmare sale.  Well then, the yearlings, some used to come in December, to get them out of the flies and the heat and get ready for the sales.  And in the old stables there were a lot of yards and round yards and you had the bullring.  Well then what they used to do, they'd get there early in the morning and they'd put the yearlings out in the yard and they'd be running round and you'd hear them squealing and whinnying out for their mates – you'd hear them early in the morning – and that’s how they exercised.  And they used to lunge, what they called lunge, in the round yard – that’s on a lead – and have them run round.

                 So there was a lot of noise in the early morning?

                 Yeah, there was a lot of noise early in the morning, but I didn’t mind; I was used to it because I was up anyhow.

                 No, no.  Part of the atmosphere.

                 And there was quite a lot of yards which was needed then.  And then when they started to change over, build all the new stables, they built like the main stable that was number 1.  Then they built number 2. And then number 3.

                 That was in the ‘80s, was it?

                 Oh, I couldn’t tell you exactly when it was.

                 Roughly, yeah.

                 But they didn’t have so many yards.

                 Right, more boxes and less …?

                 They’ve changed, now instead of putting them out in the yards to run around, they walk them.  So a lot of them have to be shod because they're walking on bitumen. But before like they didn’t shoe them, only if their feet were bad, and they'd just run round the yard or they lunged them but now they walk them because it’s all bitumen.  And then the last sale, the last stable change was number 4 and I can remember, when number 4 they used to have all the broodmares and to bring them up the side of the sale ring, up to the ring where they're sold, they used several lead ponies to lead them up. Because some of them didn’t lead up too good, or if they had a foal or something like that and that’s how they used to bring them up.  Now they just walk them up and you’ve got all the new stables which are good but not so many yards.

                 Not so much space, yeah.  And then you said that each owner uses their own handler to parade the horse in the ring.

                 Most of them do, yeah.

                 And when you first went there, it was just the old semi-circular ring with the tin roof, was it?

                 That’s right, yeah.  Well, it wasn’t covered in.

                 No, no.

                 But one leader, he’d lead most of them and occasionally there’d be one of the fellas that worked on a stud would lead one in but mainly - - -

                 Mostly it was then less staff.

                  - - the one leader like Harry Meyer and Maxie Crockett(?), Maxie did a lot of it.

                 And why do you think that changed?

                 Well, they tend to try and look after them so they don't get anything wrong with them, like a blemish, getting them ready for the sale because they don't want to put them in a saleroom, because they’ve got some bad blemish.  So they tend to protect them that way and that’s why they do what they do now.

                 Is it because they’ve become so valuable potentially now - - -

                 That’s right, that’s right, yeah.

                 - - - or more valuable now than they were?

                 Yeah.  See, there was a yearling they paid five million, I think, something for. And it finished up it died but it’d got things wrong with it because they mollycoddled it too much; kept it in cottonwool – see, it was no good.

                 So it’s an asset you can't really cottonwool it – you need to let it run around.

                 Well, it’s natural for a horse to walk and graze.  It’s not natural to them to stand and just eat grain and all that sort of thing; it’s no good for their feet or anything.  It’s hard to explain, really.

                 I understand what you're saying.

                 But I've got my own ideas.  I'm a bit old-fashioned, but I mainly go on nature and know what they're capable of doing and, you know, what should be done, but that’s my ideas.

                 Well, it worked for you.

                 It worked for a long time.

                 Yes.

                 Yeah.

                 So any other changes?  I mean like what sort of crowds used to come in the early days when you were going?  Was it mostly other people like you?

                 Not big crowds.

                 Was it trainers?

                 Mainly trainers and people connected, owners and people like me. There was a few people like me that used to go looking for a show horse and that.  But when the night sales came on, that’s when they used to get big crowds with the yearlings.

                 Was this like an evening event?

                 Yeah, like a lot of people just go to stickybeak, you know, and that’s when the crowds started to get big.  But the ordinary tried sale, there’s not a lot of people there.

                 So it’s just people in the business?

                 Yeah, yeah, more people there with the yearlings.

                 But also over the years do you notice more people buying a racehorse as an asset, like when it came that you could buy a share in a racehorse, a syndicate could get together?

                 Well, there’s more and more people in syndicates.  They'd find that they can get more owners that way because it’s very costly. And there’s I don’t know how many people in some syndicates, but there’s a lot. And they all contribute so much each so they could have it, but otherwise they wouldn’t be able to afford it.

                 Don't have a race, yeah.

                 No, yeah.

                 And so did that make for bigger crowds, do you think, or is it still a popular event to go and watch the sales?

                 Well, the yearlings, yes; not so much the tried horses, no.

                 The yearlings, not the other ones?

                 Yeah.

                 And when you say ‘broodmares’, is that mainly they're looking for them for breeding or is it also racing?

                 No, they're just for breeding.

                 Just for breeding, yeah.

                 Yeah, but sometimes they sell a mare with a foal at foot and then foal again and you called that ‘package deal’ when you’ve got a foal at foot and a mare’s in foal again.

                 Foal inside?

                 Yeah.

                 So you remember the big stables?

                 The big stable, yes.

                 That’s not always been owned by the Inglis.  For about thirty years it wasn’t.

                 Yeah.

                 So what went on there that you remember?

                 Well, that was a jail for the army.

                 What, during World War II?

                 Yeah.  And then Inglises bought it, I think.

                 Yeah, bought it back in ’59.

                 That’s right.

                 I think it was a laminex ……… factory.

                 And the government contributed something towards doing it up and that.

                 Yes.

                 Have you been there …….?

                 Yes, I've been to see it.  Yeah, it’s lovely.

                 It’s a great stable, yeah.

                 Yes.  They got a grant.

                 That stable was a big stable in the 1890s or something like that ……..(?).

                 Yeah, it’s lovely; a very impressive building.

                 But I can go back.  There was a big old stable in Charing Cross, Waverley.  In fact, I had a couple of horses there some time, but the chap that had it, he was one of the leading trainers in 1890 or something, a bloke named Teddy Keys.  And my first recollection of a horse that just won a big race was a horse called Young Crusader and he’d just won the Metropolitan which was a big handicap.  And I can still remember we lived in Earl Street and I can still remember the strapper bringing him up the street.  He had to go up to Clovelly Road. And I still remember him coming up the street.  He was a dark chestnut and he’d just won the Metropolitan.

                 And so everybody out on the street, watching?

                 That was about 1936 – it might have been before that.

                 When you were a young boy?

                 Yeah.

                 Did everybody turn out to watch if he’d just run?

                 No, no one took any notice - - -

                 Just low-key.

                 - - - because you'd see horses walking round all the time because a lot of horses used to walk round those laneways down where I had my stables, used to come for their afternoon exercise.  There’s trainers like Ted Hush, Jimmie Munro and [Alan] Morrisby [and Lou Burke], they all walked round past my stables because they went all round the lanes their afternoon exercise which took about an hour.  Instead of going on the street, there was a lot of lanes we could ride horses around.

                 It’s probably a bit quieter.

                 Yeah, a lot quieter, yeah; no traffic, you know.

                 So the sound of horses was constant?

                 Oh, yes, saw plenty of it.

                 I mean it was nothing unusual to hear horses going round?

                 No.  I was very fortunate to see Bernborough - I think he’s the best horse I've ever seen.

                 What was he like, tell me?

                 Oh, a great big nice horse, about seventeen hands, beautiful headed horse, nice big rein.  And he was stabled not far from here, about as far as the crow flies about a hundred yards.

                 Just down the road.

                 Yeah, and I saw quite a bit of him, Bernborough, yes.  But you only see one like him in a lifetime - I thought he was a fantastic horse.

                 Outstanding in that way?

                 Yeah.

                 Did you get up close to him and have a good look?

                 Oh, fairly close, yeah.  He was a very good racehorse.

                 And did you see him just being exercised?

                 I saw him race too.

                 You saw him race too?

                 Yeah.

                 Where did you see him race?

                 At Randwick.

                 Did you go to the races quite a bit?

                 I used to go but not a lot, yeah.

                 Because you liked to watch the horses?

                 I'd go to see the horses.  If I went down there now, all I wanted to do was look at the horses.

                 You weren't interested in betting and all that?

                 Not interested in betting or anything like that.  And I used to love the trots.

                 In Harold Park?

                 Trained trotters and pacers.  I won races at Harold Park and I used to love the trots.

                 It’s a different sort of race, isn't it?

                 Yeah, yeah.  Well, they race on a half mile track and they're easy to see and it’s good – under lights.

                 It’s always at night, is it?

                 Yeah.  Well, daytime now but Harold Park was night-time then.  But I did go when it was daytime. But that’s quite a good while ago.  A friend of mine had stables in Glebe and he had horses stabled there that were racing there that were racing there.  He had a livery stable. And often if he had a young horse that wanted work, I'd go and drive him and I used to drive him from Glebe out to my stables at Randwick.  Then there was no lights, and I used to have to come up Wattle Street, which crosses George Street down from Broadway, and the traffic would be bad like when I'd come through there about five o'clock in the afternoon and I was driving this big horse and he was very lively, and when you stopped he’d want to rear and plunge.  Anyhow, I got within about a hundred yards of the intersection of George Street, and there was a policeman there and the horse started to rear and plunge.  He stopped all the traffic and he waved me up on the wrong side.

                 Let you through?

                 Yeah.  And when I got up there, he said ‘I don't care where you go, as long as you get out of the way’.

                 That was good.  Well, he knew it was a problem if you stopped.

                 Yeah.  Well, see, the laws were then you had to give way to a fractious horse.

                 Wonderful.

                 But in later years, there was a few court cases.  A young girl got hurt; she was riding a horse, and noisy motorbike or something frightened the horse, and she got badly hurt and these smart lawyers worked out that horses, they were a means of transport then but now they're pleasure. So they changed the whole concept.

                 They changed the law?

                 Yeah.  See, one time, you could ask a policeman – if you were driving a horse in George Street - you asked him to hold your horse and then you could do whatever you wanted to do on the back wheel.

                 You could stop and fix up?

                 Yeah.

                 So that’s a change, isn't it?

                 Yes.

                 Yeah, I hadn't thought of that, sort of, ‘give way to a fractious horse’.

                 Yeah.  Well, they had a meeting in the Centennial Park and the boss of the mounted police, he said ‘Can you come down’, he said, ‘and answer a few questions?’  So I went down there and they told me about this smart lawyer worked out that they were a means of transport and now they're only for pleasure.

                 But that wouldn’t apply to the mounted police, would it?

                 Well, even then, sometimes they got hit, yeah.

                 Because they're a different category again.

                 Yeah.

                 So what were you advising them about?

                 Well, I said the law shouldn’t be changed because, people can cause accidents, like through driving dangerously.  Someone on a horse or something, you give them a bit of room.  Well, now they’ve got to give bike riders a bit of room.  I rode and drove horses all round here, breaking them in.

                 And people were respectful of the horse?

                 Most of them were courteous; they'd give you a bit of a go, you know.  If the horse was playing up, they'd give you a bit of room but now they run over you.

                 Different story, yeah.

                 And that’s why I don't think this light rail’s going to be a success. Because our roads are not wide enough and I remember when the tram stops, the traffic’s got to stop so people can get on and off the tram.

                 Yeah, it’s complex, isn't it?

                 Yeah.

                 It makes the whole traffic thing …

                 You see, our roads are not wide enough, and they're all higgledy-piggledy, aren't they, not like Melbourne and Adelaide where they're all - - -

                 Super wide, yeah.

                 Yes.  They probably saw our mistakes.

                 Still.  Oh, well, we’ll see what happens with that. 

                 Yeah.

                 And, so any other changes that you noticed at Inglis?  Do you still go up there - even though you're not working in the industry now, do you go and watch?

                 I went up there this last yearling sale.

                 The one in April, yeah.

                 Yeah.  But I don't worry about going up there much now.  Like I know Jeff [Matthews, complex manager], and I used to know a lot of the fellas there but they're nearly all gone, you know.  I used to go up there to see them.

                 So when you used to go earlier, they had quite a big staff, it sounds, that were looking after horses.

                 Oh, yeah, yeah.

                 Did the horses stay longer in the olden days?  You said they'd come in December.

                 Yeah, they did.

                 So they'd be there for, what, six weeks or more?

                 Yes, that’s right.

                 It’s the end of January, the yearling sale?

                 Well, they didn’t have the January then – it was only Easter.

                 So they were all sold …?

                 They'd still come down early to get them out of the heat and the flies so they'd look all right.

                 So they'd be there for three months?

                 Yeah, because in the sun their coats get sort of sunburnt, you know.

                 It’s too hot in the country, yeah.

                 Yeah.  With the yards and that, they could put them out in the yard and they'd run round for half an hour; they'd exercise themselves.  Then they'd bring them in and hose them and then just clean them up.

                 Do you remember any particular incidents up at the Inglis stables?  Like they had an outbreak of botulism in 1994.  Were you around then?

                 Yeah.  I mean that’s what I'm talking about, yeah - a lot of horses died.

                 Did you see the horses?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 What can they do in that case?

                 Well, they couldn’t do much at all, really.  They just got this botulism and they just died.

                 Is it very quick?

                 Yeah, pretty quick, yeah.

                 Did you ever have any incidents in your stables like that?

                 No, no.

                 That’s lucky.  So it’s a rare thing, is it?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 And did you go in and out of the Inglis compound generally when you were living there – just wander in and chat to people?

                 Well, I used to because I had a friend who lived there and worked there.

                 Right.

                 Yeah, used to live there.

                 Was he living in which part – was he in Chiltern Cottage?

                 No, he had his own room.  Then he got a caravan; he had a caravan down near number 3.

                 Yeah.

                 And … ?

                 And what was his work there – what was he doing?

                 Well, he worked there with the stables and that - he worked them for years.  In fact, there’s a plaque about him in the main stable, Jack Burraston.

                 Jack Burraston, yes, yeah.  He was a good friend of yours?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 So tell me about him.  He seems quite a legend in his time.

                 He was, yeah.  He was there for a long time and he took the horses away to the Olympics in Mexico, I think it was; he travelled with there, yeah.  But he had a long time with Inglises and he lived on the premises.

                 And he was a very good horse person?

                 Yeah.

                 Did he do training as well?

                 No, he just sort of worked in the stables and all that sort of thing.

                 He was just good at handling the horses?

                 Yeah.

                 So what did you two do – did you have a good yarn together about horses?

                 Oh, yeah, we were always talking about horses, yeah.

                 And did you socialise together – did you go down to the hotel?

                 Yeah, sometimes, yeah.

                 Or go to the races to look at the horses?

                 The last time we went up to Johnny Lundholm’s place at Coonamble – he was a leading trainer up there then – we went up there for the rodeo and that was about ten years ago, I think - Jack’s been dead about five.  But getting back to the yearlings, a lot of yearlings used to come into the cattle siding at Darling Harbour – that was at the foot of Bathurst Street – and there was Livestock Transport – they had the big yellow floats.  There was Kevin Spain he had two floats and there was Callinan’s – they had quite a few floats – and they used to bring all the horses up to the sales.

                 So it was a big operation?

                 Yeah.  And Inglises for a long time it was like a depot for all these country transports; they used to bring their horses in.  Say your horse had to go from Tamworth to Wagga, it would be brought down from Tamworth and probably left overnight here at Inglis’ and then the next day it’d go to Wagga with a different train and all(?).

                 On the train, yeah.

                 Even from South Australia and Western Australia, the transports used to come in.

                 Come through Inglis’?

                 Yeah, yeah.  Well, then they cut that out towards the finish.

                 Did they?

                 M’mm.

                 Because it was hard to transport them from the Darling yards or Darling Harbour yards?

                 Well, when they built all the new stables, they didn’t have the yards, see.  Often they could bring the horse in, just put them in the yard and they’d be there overnight and go the next morning, you know.

                 Exercise as well, yeah.

                 But I used to see a lot of them come in and out.

                 So it sounds like – I mean now it’s very quiet, isn't it - - -

                 It was a very busy place.

                 - - - between sales but then it was continually busy.

                 It was always busy, yeah.

                 So you always had the sound of horses.

                 Yeah.

                 And was there a lot of smell of horses and straw?

                 No, no.

                 But noise – a nice sound.

                 That was only the yearlings, when they used to run round early in the morning.

                 What, they were the noisy ones?

                 Yeah, singing out to their mates.

                 Teenagers.

                 Yeah.

                 With your own stables, did you have any other people working with you or did you do it all yourself?

                 Done it all meself.

                 All yourself.

                 Yeah.

                 So what happened if you got sick – you'd still have to work?

                 Yeah, worked.  The only time was when I couldn’t stand up, that’d be the only time I wouldn’t work.

                 And what happened then?

                 Well, had me wife there.

                 She’d feed them or whatever?

                 Yeah.

                 So you had a stable, really, till you were sixty five, so that’s, more than forty five years.

                 Yeah.

                 If you started at fourteen, so fifty years.

                 Yeah.

                 So when you stopped running the stables, did you just close it up, or did someone else take it over?

                 Well, not long after that it was sold; the place was sold and they pulled the stables down.  That’s what happened everywhere round: the stables just went.

                 Yes.  You don't see many, walking round.

                 Where there was a block of stables, is a block of flats.

                 Yeah, so that was gone.  And was it with regret that you stopped even?

                 Oh, yeah, yeah.

                 And what do you remember most that you liked about it?

                 Well, I liked working with the horses and, I don’t know, it was a living, I suppose - I had to work a lot of hours though.

                 A lot of hours, but you were your own master.

                 Yeah, but you have to work seven days a week.  Yes, I worked seven days a week.

                 Yeah, anything with animals.

                 Yeah.

                 Did you have other animals?  Did you have dogs?

                 I had dogs.  I had border collie dogs – I bred them for a while.

                 Did you?

                 Yeah.

                 But would horses be your first, prime love, though?

                 Yeah.

                 So do you still go down to look at the horses at the racetrack?

                 No, I haven't been down there for a while.  Since they changed it all down there, I didn’t like it much when I went down there.

                 In what way?

                 Well, they changed all round.  They built this Theatre of the Horse – I think it’s a stupid damn thing meself – and they changed all the stabling and everything.  Whereas I could go down there, just inside the gate there was all the stables, and there was like a parade ring before they went into the main ring, and you could have a good look at them and all that sort of thing.

                 Yeah, get close.

                 Now they're too far away.

                 What, now it’s all kind of tiered seats, is it?

                 Yeah.  I just didn’t like it, you know.

                 That’s a shame.

                 Because the main thing I'd go was to have a look at the horses.

                 Close look at them.

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 So is there anywhere else?  If you go to Centennial Park, do you still see horses?

                 I was there yesterday, actually.  See a few horses, not many.  Years ago there’d be a couple of hundred horses going round there on the weekend. There were so many privately-owned horses in the whole area that exercised in the park and those days you could ride to the park even from here.  Now you couldn’t: you'd get run over when you cross the road here.

                 And, of course there were a lot of racetracks still here until after the war when they started closing them.

                 Yes.  There was Ascot, out at Mascot; Rosebery, Victoria Park, Moorefield, Canterbury, Rosehill and Randwick.  Yeah, there was a lot of tracks.

                 And then the Kensington – that was a pony track, wasn’t it?

                 Did I mention Kensington?  I don't think I did.

                 No.

                 Yeah, Kensington, yes.  In fact, I went to a gymkhana at Kensington - and they used to have a gallop, like the horses - and the race was on, a woman drove the horse – she was crossing the track and the sun was in her eyes; she didn’t see, and a lot of the horses crashed into the car and a couple of horses got killed and one horse jumped right over the car.  It was only a small car.  That’s a long while ago.

                 And you rode every day when you had the stables?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 So you enjoyed that.

                 Yeah, I'd go out six o'clock in the morning.  I was teaching people to ride and I used to take out the first lot at six o'clock in the morning.

                 What, young kids or all ages?

                 No, older people, really.  I'd take the kids in the afternoon, after school some of them.

                 So they came and had riding lessons?

                 Yeah.

                 Did you take them up to Centennial Park?

                 No, Centennial Park, yeah, which is only a couple of minutes from where the stables were just rode down a lane, crossed the road and I was in the park.

                 That’s great.  So you’ve had a very versatile career, really - - -

                 Yeah, done a lot, yeah.

                 - - - teaching kids and breaking horses and looking after them.

                 Yeah.

                 It must be satisfying looking back on it.

                 I don’t know.  You think of some things but you’ve got to have your memory jogged to really, think about it.

                 You talked to me about choosing a tried horse that would become a show pony - - -

                 Tried horse, yeah.

                 - - - but I didn’t ask you, really, what you did next.  Did you take it to the show?

                 Well, I rode it and educated it and then probably sold it.

                 Sold it to someone, right.

                 Yeah.

                 By which time did it become more valuable because of all that training?

                 Oh, yeah, yeah.

                 And how long would that take you to turn it around into being a show pony?

                 It might take a month or six weeks to educate.

                 Quite quickly?

                 You start off by going to a gymkhana – that’s a small show – and they're good enough to go into a bigger show.

                 And you just see how they proceeded?

                 Yeah.

                 And then maybe people would see them at the show and approach you about buying them?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 Or would you do it through and agent like Inglis?

                 No, I never had to advertise.

                 Always word of mouth?

                 That’s right, yeah.  My own work was my best recommendation.  But I bought a horse at Inglis’ one day and there was another show person there and she come up and she said ‘I could have kicked you fair in the shins.  I wanted that horse’.  I said, ‘It’s a funny thing.  I did too – that’s why I bought him’.  And I no sooner got home and the phone rang.  This fella said, ‘I believe you bought a nice little horse there today’.  I said ‘Yeah’.  He said, ‘Is he on the market?’  I said, ‘Yes, he’s for sale’.  I bought him on the Friday and sold him on the Sunday.

                 Really?

                 Yeah, he brought these people down from Dubbo.  They had a big stock – they used to grow a lot of feed and that sort of thing; Stockmans were their name.  They came down on the Sunday with their float and bought him and took him away. 

                 Wow.

                 Yeah, I bought him on the Friday, sold him on the Sunday.

                 Quick turnover.

                 Yeah.

                 And did they offer you more than you'd paid?

                 Oh, yeah, yeah.

                 So you didn’t have to do any training?

                 No.

                 Why were they so attracted – because they saw it was a good horse or did they know the horse?

                 Well, the chap that told them about the horse, he used to go to a lot of shows and do judging and that and he knew if I bought a horse, it would be pretty good.

                 You'd put a tick of approval against it?

                 Yeah, yeah.  But I remember I bought a horse there one day and I went up on the Saturday morning to pay for him and bring him home – that’s when I had that stables down near Centennial Park.  And I was talking to Max Crockett – he was using the place to break in – and then he was talking to John Inglis and as I was leading the horse out, John Inglis said ‘Oh, he’s a good style of horse’.  He said ‘What’d you pay for him?’ and I told him.  And I took him home and I didn’t know anything about him and I rode him - he gave me one of the best rides ever round at Centennial Park.  And I was just coming out the gate at Govett Street where I come out and a girl had come off a motorbike and she was laying, like at the entrance there.  So anyhow, I got off to try and help her and the horse just stood there.  I had hold of him – and the traffic.  Anyhow, a bloke rung up and the ambulance come there and took her away. But he was so quiet and took no notice of it.  Anyhow, my wife showed him a fair bit; he was a pretty good horse.  But I remember he gave me such a good ride, just cantering in the park.

                 Straight away?

                 Yeah, yeah, because a lot of them you’ve got to spend a bit of time settling them down.

                 He just took to you straight away?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 And do horses take to different people?  Like sometimes, you know, you'd ride a horse and then maybe your wife would ride it, behave differently?

                 Yes, with some people.  Some people have got more control.

                 That’s a nice story. 

                 And did you ever sell any horses to people overseas? 

                 Yes, to Penang [Malaysia], a polo horse, trained, and one I trained meself.  And they went to Penang and I had to take them and put them on the boat.

                 Did you have to do a whole lot of extra paperwork to export it?

                 No, no, no.  And you’ve got to put them on the boat and you put them in this stall, then they put the barricade up after you put the horse in the stall.  And then I put the horse in the stalls and they put the barricades up.  Then I had to get down - I put bandages on their legs to protect their legs.  And all these sailors – they were all foreigners – looking down, thought I was going to get killed; they were frightened of horses.  But then, the horses would stand, on like the deck and they used to hose to clean and they'd hose the mare off, that’s all.

                 And how many days would they be on the ship?

                 A couple of days, two or three days – about three days, I think it was.  And I've put plenty of horses on trains, and cattle wagons.

                 The same thing – they're barricaded in on the train?

                 Well, I've taken horses to Melbourne in what they call a horsebox and that’s like a horse float attached to the passenger train. I've put horses into cattle wagons which goes on a goods train.  And the cattle wagon used to come into Darling Harbour, and I used to take horses in, put them on the cattle wagon, and take them off.  And I had a horse come back from Melbourne Show, he came in a horsebox, behind a passenger train.  I had to go and get him off the train platform at Central on a Sunday night.

                 What, Platform 1 or something?

                 Yeah, yeah.  But you used to put the horses on the horsebox at the mortuary.  You know the mortuary?

                 Yeah, the station before.

                 You used to put them on there, yeah.

                 It’d be easier.

                 Yeah.  But it was a Sunday and it was closed and they had to unload on Central Station.

                 And lead him out?

                 Yeah.  And I put horses on there one night to go back to Walcha on Central, yeah.

                 Gosh.  So you had to walk it past the departure board and through there? 

                 Yeah.

                 Straight on, yeah.

                 No, they drove the float up onto the platform.

                 Further down?

                 Yeah, so you didn’t have to go through the - - -

                 And when you sold a horse to somebody in Penang, how did they approach you?  Did they come and see you here?

                 Well, yes, this chap came.

                 An agent?

                 No, he was a wealthy businessman in Penang and he married a girl here in Sydney and he saw me riding this horse round Centennial Park and he said to me, he said ‘Oh, that’s a nice horse you got there’.  He said ‘Is he for sale?’  I said ‘Yes’.  So I said ‘What did you want him for?’  He said ‘Polo’.  Well, I said, ‘He’s not educated for polo’.  He said ‘Could you give him a bit of education?’  I said ‘Yes’.  So I did that and he bought the horse and he said ‘Now I want another one’.  So I had a friend at Campbelltown and he used to cart horses and cattle round and he used to play polo.  And I said ‘Look, I'm after a horse’.  I said, ‘I don't want a real good horse.  I want one that’s’ - - -

                 Potential?

                 - - - no, ‘one that’s sort of going downhill - like the owner’s got a better horse – but one that’s well-educated and quiet.’ and he said, ‘Yes’.  He says, ‘I'll get you a horse’ and he got me a horse, so I sent the two of them over.  So then there was another chap here, a bloodstock agent - he was sending horses over there but they were having a lot of trouble with them.  So then they said that they wouldn’t take any horses unless I okayed them.

                 You'd chosen it?

                 So I used to have to go and have a look at the horses and okay them before they could go over there because this fella misrepresented a few and a few people got hurt and all that sort of thing.  But I knew what they wanted: they wanted the horses that played a fair bit and then the owners got on the better one, you know.

                 Yeah, so they already knew the game or something?

                 Yeah, you got a quiet, educated horse.  Education to a horse is worth a lot of money.  I used to educate horses and send them back up to the country, sold them and went back up the country.  I'd buy them from the country, bring them down to educate it and send them back up.

                 Send them back again?

                 Yeah.

                 So it was to and froing?

                 Yeah.  Well, Sergeant Ron Livermore, he was the boss of the mounted police, and he’d ring me up and he said, ‘Look, a friend of mine wants a horse that’s so and so for a station horse’, you know. And I'd have one or I could go and get one; I always seemed to have something I could sell.  Same - I used to buy saddles; I'd buy a good saddle if I could buy at the right price and I used to send a lot of saddles away to country but I never misrepresented anything.  I always told the truth and then like that’s the best recommendation because you send a saddle away to someone, ‘Oh, where’d you get that saddle?’  ‘I got it off Bruce Carnes’.  ‘Do you think he’d get me one?’  ‘Yeah’, and I would, and, you know, I would always send a good saddle.

                 You were reliable and honest?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 So with a polo pony, what do you have to do to educate them? 

                 Well, you’ve got to teach them to follow the ball, or the stick, and you’ve got to learn to swing them around, and all that sort of thing.

                 Fast, yeah.

                 Spin them around and stop them quickly.

                 So you'd do that?  You'd go out to Centennial Park with a mallet and hit a ball?

                 That’s right, yeah.  And getting back to Reg Inglis, old Reg, he bought a horse – well, he got a horse for a client.  And he was very wealthy, this bloke - he owned coalmines - and he wanted a horse for his daughter.  Anyhow, I went up there.  They got me to go and ride the horse, and I rode him up where they used to bring the broodmares up the side of the sale ring there, grass plot there.  He bucked all the way up there, and old Reg said to Mr Cuttle(?), his name was, he said ‘Oh, Bruce’ll straighten him out’.  I had a lot of trouble with the horse.  Anyhow, the bloke bought him and his daughter rode him and I educated him for polocrosse.  And polocrosse hadn't been going that long and they put on at Castle Hill Show, which was a big show, they put on a special class for horses educated for polocrosse.  Anyhow, the girl that he got the horse for, she rode him, won the class on him.  But I had a lot of trouble educating him: he was a very lively horse; you know, had a lot of trouble trying to settle him down, but anyhow he done the job all right.

                 And he won.  That was good.

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 So is polocrosse different from polo?

                 Oh, much different.  Polocrosse, they have a net - - -

                 Like a lacrosse net?

                 - - - and they carry the ball and throw it.

                 I get it, yeah.

                 Polo, you hit it with a mallet.  Polocrosse is a cheap man’s sport, where you have one horse, but with polo you’ve got to have four, you know, a team.  Wealthy.

                 So there’s almost no category of horse that you haven't ridden or trained, it seems.

                 I've done a lot.t

                 And you do those cutting horses – you do that too?

                 No, I didn’t do that.

                 You didn’t do that?

                 No, I never got into the western business, no.  No, I've ridden a lot of horses.  I've ridden some very good horses but one of the greatest thrills is to sit behind a good trotter, a good harness horse; that’s a great thrill.

                 Really?

                 Yeah.

                 That’s your pinnacle for you?

                 Yeah, I love that, yeah.  But I was fortunate to ride some very, very good horses but with the trotters, that was one I liked the best.

                 You liked the feeling?

                 Yeah, I was very good; I was very capable to be able to drive a horse, and ride a horse, you know.

                 And steer it, yeah.

                 Yeah.

                 But you didn’t race at Harold Park yourself?

                 Yeah.

                 You did?

                 No, I didn’t drive but I trained.  I drove at Bankstown, and Fairfield, and Castle Hill and Parramatta, those places - - -

                 To get them in training?

                 - - - yeah, but I hadn't driven enough winners to drive at Harold Park.

                 What, you have to have had a number of winners before you can get in there?

                 Yeah.  But then it became a bit difficult because I had to go to Harold Park to train.  I couldn’t get on Sydney Showground, the only probably showground that you can't go and work a trotter or a pacer, and I had to go all the way to Harold Park to train.

                 Sydney would have been nearer, yes.

                 Yeah.  If I got have got on the Showground it would have been good.

                 You'd get more time in.

                 But I used to do a fair bit of work in Centennial Park but you wasn’t supposed to.

                 So you’ve taught yourself from a young age and you’ve got a lot of experience.

                 Yeah, and observing and taking particular notice.

                 You're very observant?

                 One episode I remember – and this is a long time ago; I think I was about sixteen years of age – I went to Wellington with this friend of mine.  He was a horse dealer and he had stables in Glebe, a livery stable and he said ‘I want to introduce this chap up here.  He’s a very good man breaking in harness horses.’ and his name was Ted Don.  And I went and met this fella, and he’s a quiet, unassuming sort of a man, and I got talking to him and I asked him a few things and I said, ‘What do you do when you first put the horse in the shows?’  He said, ‘I always let them walk off.  It doesn’t matter if they walk for half an hour or an hour.’.  He said, ‘Then they're accustomed to the gig round them and they’ve settled down.’  He said, ‘If you put a horse in and push him off straight away’, he said ‘He’s likely to kick or buck or do something wrong.’ And I learnt that and I've never forgotten it.  And putting them on the shaft and all that sort of thing with a nervy horse or a horse that’s troublesome, put them on the shaft and you give them a run and it makes all the difference.

                 So you just let them walk on their own and get used to it?

                 Yeah, and then let them trot off then but don't chase them off.

                 Don't try to control them at all?

                 Don't put them in – like you see them in the movies, you don't do that.

                 Yeah, none of that.  That’s just drama for movies.

                 Another thing that I did when I was training the trotters, I trained a few New Zealand horses and they don't have night trotting there – well they didn’t then. And a lot of those horses, racing under the lights was a stimulant to them; you know, they livened up.  So I had this horse and I used to ride a horse and lead him up outside the picture show, which wasn’t far from my place, and stand there when the crowd come out at interval with the lights and the people, you know.  And I done that a few times and when I took him to Harold Park he was as good as gold; it didn’t worry him; I reckon that helped him.

                 Now that was a clever idea, to take him to the picture house.

                 Yeah.

                 There are a lot of things to think of, aren't there, when you're training?

                 Yeah, that’s right, yeah.

                 Well, they're instinct to you now.

                 Yeah.  I think the main thing, riding a horse, you’ve got to have good anticipation, look ahead and you can see danger.  That’s why a good jockey can look ahead and he can see what’s going wrong up there and that’s the difference between a good rider and a bad rider.

                 So you’ve got to be really alert and focused.

                 Yeah, you’ve got to anticipate.

                 And know what might happen.

                 That’s right.  A step ahead and you're all right, a step behind and you're on your behind.

                 So, Bruce, look, thank you.  You’ve told me a lot about your very interesting life and work with horses and most of that I knew nothing about.

                 I've never talked so much about it.  I don't really say much at all, really.  I've really got to be sort of forced into it, you know.  Someone jogs your memory, they say, “Remember when you had this horse or you had that horse”, you know.

                 And it comes back?

                 Yeah.

                 Well, I'm very grateful that you took the time to tell me all that because it’s been really interesting.

                 Well, I had a very good breaking-in gig and, as I told you, I used to drive into Darling Harbour with a horse on the shaft, put it on the train or pick one up off the train and drive around here everywhere where there was traffic and everything and it was a good education for the horse.  And Centennial Park was the best place to educate a horse because they saw everything, cars, people, other horses.

                 Other horses?

                 Yeah.

                 So there was plenty of different experiences?

                 Yeah.

                 So you'd deliberately maybe take them near the cars for a bit to get used to that?

                 That’s right, yeah.

                 That’s good.  Well, that’s very good.  Thank you very much.

                 Well, I hope it’s helpful for you.

                 Very helpful, thank you.