Newmarket Oral History: Neale Begg - Part 2

Neale Begg (b. 1957) speaks to interviewer Virginia Macleod. As a master saddle maker, Neale is one of the last of his kind in Sydney—and his story is deeply tied to the culture of Newmarket and the surrounding racing community. Raised in Randwick, with a horse-trainer father and a teacher mother, Neale grew up around the stables. By age 12 he was already helping local saddler Harry Smith in Barker Street, and at just 14 years and nine months he began a hands-on apprenticeship with George Davidson in Bourke Street, later continuing under J.P. Talty in Haymarket. Neale’s work has always been shaped by the racing world. His time as a trackworker taught him how a horse moves and feels under saddle—knowledge that guides every piece he makes. While imported saddles are cheaper than his raw materials, Neale specialises in custom work for jockeys, focusing on balance, weight, durability and the fine details of leathercraft. His workshop, once on Anzac Parade and now at Randwick Racecourse, is filled with traditional tools: knives, hammers, a sewing machine, and a well-used leather strop. Beyond saddles, Neale creates everything from bridles and girths to wallets, menu covers and film props. A member of the Saddlers and Harness Makers Association of Australia, he stands as the last practising saddler in the city.

                 I just paused there for a bit of traffic.  So you used to ride a lot, helping your father?

                 Yeah, I used to ride track work for my father when I was doing my apprenticeship, and used to go to pony clubs, and foxhunts, and all different types of things, so I've always been hands-on with the horses.

                 But it was the saddles that attracted you?

                 Yeah.

                 You didn’t want to become a rider?

                 That’s probably why I make the saddles so good, because, I've worked with horses, and a lot of saddlers, they’ve never touched a horse in their life.

                 Really?  Only use like a model?

                 Yeah, they just go off templates, and a lot of the saddlers, aren’t horse people.

                 And so your apprenticeship was entirely practical with these two firms?

                 It was all practical, yeah.

                 And you didn’t have to go to TAFE and do written stuff and things?

                 No, there was no TAFE.

                 Or whatever it was called in those days.

                 And like there’s no TAFE for saddlery, even now.

                 There’s none?

                 No.

                 Not even out at Richmond, because they do quite a lot of horse things, don’t they?

                 No.

                 No.  So you need to keep people interested in the trade, don’t you?

                 Well, it’s very hard these days, when they bring in so many cheap imports into the country.

                 A lot of them are made overseas?

                 That’s what’s destroyed the saddlery industry in Australia.

                 So where are they being made overseas?

                 A lot of stuff comes in from India.  They bring a lot of saddles in from South America, Mexico.

                 And they're not such good quality?

                 The quality’s starting to get up there but, it’s just they’ve got such cheap labour over there.

                 You can’t compete on price?

                 No.  They can sell a saddle cheaper than I can buy, the materials for the saddle.

                 And is there a certain amount of mass production in Australia still or not really?

                 No, there’s hardly any mass production.

                 So they're all handmade but it’s a bit of a dying - - -

                 It’s a dying trade.  Next Saturday with Randwick races.

                 With the races on, yeah, we wouldn’t have been able to hear ourselves with the cheering when they come in with a winner.  Yeah, we’ve got a bit of traffic noise coming and going, which is interrupting our talk a bit.

                 So when people come to you, what sort of saddles do they want – mostly who are your customers?

                 Most of my customers, are jockeys.  I make jockey saddles; I've been making jockey saddles, since I was seventeen.

                 All the jockeys know you?  So most of your custom is through word of mouth, I guess?

                 Yeah.  My saddles are very well made and they last.  Even I had someone send a saddle back to me, just to put some new leather flaps on, and I made it in 1979.

                 Wow.  And it’s only just come back to you?

                 And it only just come back to me - - -

                 That’s a testament.

                 - - - just to be restored.

                 So they last a long time?

                 Yeah.  I make them too good. 

                 I don't know.  Obviously, the person wanted to keep riding on that saddle.

                 Yeah.

                 Tell me, and so how do you go about it?  You’ve said some people don’t even see the horse or whatever.  What do you measure and how do you start?

                 Years ago – I took all the measurements of the horse’s backs and my saddle trees, I've been using them my whole apprenticeship.

                 You make them yourself?

                 No, no, I've got a fella that makes them for me.

                 And what are they made of?

                 Wood and steel.

                 And can you just explain – I mean you can probably show me one, but can you explain which bit that is?

                 That’s the saddle frame. 

                 Right, so it’s the frame, the shape of the saddle?

                 Yeah.

                 Yeah, I see.  That’s called a tree.

                 And that goes inside the saddle.

                 And it’s got two parts, like an outer ring. [see photos]

                 Yeah.  I cover it.

                 And do you put padding in?

                 Yeah, I put padding and I make sure all the weight’s in the right spot, because every saddle should balance right in the centre.

                 Right.  You're balancing it on your fingertip, from the centre and it balances perfectly.  Great. [see photo]

                 And not many saddlers can do that.

                 Right.  That’s a good test, isn't it?

                 And I try to make sure every one of my saddles, doesn’t matter what weight, you just put your fingers underneath and - - -

                 Looks like a feather, doesn’t it?

                 - - - it'll balance.

                 Yeah, perfectly.  We’ll get a shot of that later – I'll take a photo at the end.  And so the padding that you put in, what do you use?

                 I use foam at the moment.

                 Foam, yeah.

                 Special rubbers.

                 Is that longer lasting?  Have you always used that or have you used wool, and sheepskin?

                 In the old day we used to put horsehair in the saddles, but that went out a long time ago.

                 Is that because it doesn’t last as well?

                 No, no, it goes too hard.

                 And the foam keeps it - - -

                 The foam I use, it'll keep its shape.

                 Which is important, obviously, yeah.  And so there’s the tree and, what are the other bits of the anatomy of a saddle?  So there’s a flap – you talked about flaps.

                 Yeah.  Well, I do the top, make the tops of the saddles.  That’s the flaps; that’s the flap in the seat.

                 And they go down the side?

                 Yeah.

                 And that’s to protect the inside of the rider’s knee?

                 That’s for the rider, so they're comfortable.

                 Right.  So it’s smooth for them, there, yeah.  And do you also make the girth?

                 Yeah, I make everything – I make the girths.

                 Is that leather, or cloth?

                 Mostly girths for the jockeys’ saddles are elastic.

                 Elastic, right.

                 Yeah, so they stretch.  But I make the bridles, race bridles, I make just about everything.

                 The whole kit.

                 Even show saddles.

                 For show horsing?

                 Yeah, for show horses.

                 Right, so you do jockeys, you do show as well?

                 Yeah.

                 As well as racing.  And what’s the fender?  That’s another part of the saddle.

                 That’s different. A fender’s a saddle.  It’s a half Australian saddle and half American.  That’s just the flaps.

                 So it’s a different anatomy altogether?

                 Yeah. 

                 But you don’t make those?

                 Bit of rubbish, no.

                 That’s easy, yeah.  So when jockeys come and they ask you, do they come saying, you know, ‘I want a black saddle or a red saddle.’?

                 They always want the colour you haven’t got.

                 So what do you do then?

                 Make one.

                 Make one.  Do you have to do the dyeing still?

                 No, I go to the tannery.

                 Tannery, and they’ll dye it for you?

                 Yeah, but I mostly buy Italian leather so I go through all the leather and pick out the best …

                 So you go over to the tannery?

                 Yeah.

                 Where’s that?

                 There’s two here.  There’s one at Botany, called Birdsall’s and there’s another one at Pagewood called New South Wales Leather.

                 Right, so both quite near?

                 Yeah.

                  And where do they get it from?  You said Italian, but do they import mostly?

                 Yeah, but they import it, they import it; they import a lot of leather.

                 And why do you use Italian leather – what is it about it?

                 I find it’s the best leather to work with.

                 And it’s come from which animal?

                 It’s all cow.

                 Cow, yeah.

                 Calf leather.

                 So is it the way they tan it that makes it good?

                 Yeah, because the leather I use is, the same as what they use in shoes, shoe leather.

                 So it’s soft and supple?

                 Yeah, soft, but strong.

                 And the Italians have a reputation for good leather goods, don’t they?

                 Yeah.  And they haven’t been put out of business by the greenies, like all the tanneries here.

                 Is that what stopped the tanneries here?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 What’s happened?

                 All the greenies - - -

                 What, because of the pollution?

                 - - - the pollution control.  That’s why most of the big tanneries here are all closed down, because it would have cost them millions to, sort of update, their equipment.

                 Well, they have to get all the whatever they use, the dyes and stuff, out of the water before they discharge it now, I guess.

                 Yeah.  We had some of the best leather, anywhere.  Now, all our hides get sent overseas, and sold back to us.  So we’re the smart country, aren’t we?

                 So you mean it’s being polluted somewhere else?

                 Yeah, it just goes to India or, it goes to Europe, pollutes their water, and gets sold back to us at treble the price.

                 Oh dear, yeah.  So the price has gone up a lot from when you started?

                 Yeah.  But a lot of the leather we buy, in Australia, it’s Australian leather to start off.

                 But it’s been round the world?

                 It’s been around the world and sold back to us.

                 So the two places that you buy it from here, they're not actually tanning themselves now?

                 No.

                 They're importing?

                 There is Birdsall’s tan leather – they tan a lot of kangaroo skins.

                 Do you ever use that?

                 Yeah, I use kangaroo skins in saddles.

                 And what’s that good for - I mean what are the differences between kangaroo and calf?

                 Kangaroo’s very strong.

                 It’s stronger, is it?

                 Yeah, it’s very soft, but it’s strong.

                 And do people ever say, ‘I want a kangaroo saddle’ or ‘I want a calf saddle.’ or you just decide?

                 I decide what type of leather I'm going to use when I'm making it.

                 And so you'd show it to me and say, ‘This is what I'm going to use.’ and I'd approve the colour?

                 This one, I'll show you.  That’s kangaroo.

                 It’s beautiful.

                 And that’s calf.

                 I'll take a picture later.  Yeah, so this feels tougher, the kangaroo. [ See photo of kangaroo, calf and crocodile saddles]

                 Yeah, it’s a lot firmer.

                 Harder and firmer?

                 So the fibre’s a lot tighter.

                 So how long’s it take you to make a saddle?  I mean do you do it in one hit or over a few days?

                 It usually takes me two or three days.

                 That’s working just on one saddle?

                 Just on one saddle.

                 And so, okay, so we’ve chosen the leather and then what do you do?  Do you make a pattern for each client?

                 No, I've got all my patterns all made, so each is different.  I make all different sizes.  They go from 200 grams, to a stone in weight. [6350gm]

                 Really, yeah.

                 So I've got patterns for each size, that I've made over many years, and I just use the same patterns and they all come out exactly the same.

                 The same saddle and you get what you want.  And the patterns are made out of – is it plywood?

                 No, that’s just cardboard.

                 Cardboard, right.  So you’ve got a whole set of patterns that match your saddles?

                 Yeah.

                 And so how do you measure the jockey for the saddle?

                 Most of the saddles, the jockeys buy the saddles on how heavy they are.

                 It’s by the weight?

                 Yeah.

                 They're not interested in fitting it to them?

                 No.

                 I just saw on some saddles they talked about measuring, you know, the - - -

                 Yeah, that’s show saddles.

                 That’s for show, right, when you measure the girth of your thigh and how big your hips are?

                 Yeah..

                 But for jockeys it’s all by weight?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 That’s interesting.  And the smallest is two hundred grams, the lightest?

                 Yeah.  That’s for a heavy jockey and a real light jockey, he might use a stone [6350 grams] saddle.

                 So why would you choose a heavier saddle?  I'm just thinking you'd want everything as light as possible.

                 Well, the horses get different weights.

                 So it’s to do with the weight?

                 It all depends on the weight a horse is given in a race.

                 Right.  So would a jockey have a set of saddles then of different weights? 

                 Most jockeys have probably ten to fifteen saddles.

                 Right, okay.  All different weights?

                 All different weights.

                 Or different styles?

                 Different sizes, yeah.

                 And so do you find a lot of your customers like, ‘I'm a jockey, so I'm coming to you fairly regularly because I've got fifteen saddles to maintain’ or ‘I want a new one.’?

                 If you buy them off me, they don’t have to come back too often.

                 That’s what I was thinking, because you said this guy hadn’t been back since nearly forty years.

                 Yeah.  Well, his father was a jockey at that time – I made it for his father.

                 And then he inherited it, yeah.

                 He’s using it.  He’s been riding for the last fifteen years and he’s still using that saddle.

                 Same saddle, wow.  So you cut the leather.  Now, you use all hand tools, I assume?

                 Yes, I cut the leather out.

                 So you cut from the pattern.

                 I cut the leather out with a round knife.

                 A round knife.  Is that the one I saw you sharpening?

                 Yeah, that’s a round knife.

                 So it’s almost like a sickle shape.

                 Yeah, half-moon.

                 Half-moon, yeah.

                 And I cut it out, then I glue the parts I've got to glue together.

                 What sort of a glue do you use?

                 I use a shoemaking glue – it’s very strong.  Then I sew the saddles all together.

                 And you do that by hand or a machine?

                 On the little saddles, I do a lot by machine.  See how fine that stitching is.

                 Wow.  That’s machine, or hand?

                 That’s machine.

                 So you make these lovely patterns and decorations with machine stitching?

                 Yeah.

                 And this one’s crocodile, which we haven’t mentioned, actually, have we?  

                 Yeah, that’s crocodile, yeah.

                 We’ve only mentioned calf and kangaroo.

                 Yeah.

                 So is there a big demand for crocodile?

                 There’s only one jockey I make the crocodile skin saddles for – that’s Hugh Bowman.  He rides Winx.

                 Famous, yeah.

                 And he’s probably the only one that could afford it.

                 I was going to say, yeah.

                 Each skin, the value of the skins can go up to $10 000 for a skin.

                 Wow.  And how many skins would you need for a saddle or a big portion? 

                 Well, those saddles I made in there, that’s two skins.

                 Two skins, wow.  So it’s a real expensive item.

                 Yeah.

                 But a calf or a kangaroo skin, how much would that be, roughly?

                 A kangaroo skin’s about a hundred dollars for a kangaroo, calf skin can go to two hundred.

                 Right.  So crocodile’s really at the designer end of the range?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 A bit like handbags, isn't it?

                 Well, this leather, this leather gets sent to Hermes, for the Hermes’ bags.

                 I was right to mention handbags then, yeah.  It’s very beautiful, I can see. 

                 Yeah.

                 Okay, so you’ve cut it out and you stitch it on the machine, glue it.

                 Glue it, and then I start to build the saddle.

                 Right.  You put it over the tree that we saw with the …

                 Put it over the tree, make the girth points for the girth, and then start to put the saddle together, and then hand stitch all the rest of it.

                 So which bits do you have to hand stitch?

                 I've got to sew all the front in.

                 Sort of tricky corners, yeah.

                 Yeah, and the back.  Have everything all shaped properly.

                 Right.  And a lot of your jobs, is there a season?  Like suddenly everybody wants their saddles, or is it fairly constant?

                 No, it’s all over.  It goes through phases.  Like this time of year, with all the big races coming up, it’s when, you know, jockeys will buy new saddles.

                 They're all getting ready for the season?

                 Yeah, all getting ready for the season.

                 And you talked about making the bridles as well.

                 Yeah.

                 Now, are those made out of something different, or would that be crocodile too?

                 No, no.  The bridles I make out of English bridle leather.

                 So it’s also from calf, from a cow?

                 Yeah, it’s from cow, yeah.

                 And all the sort of actual metal, the stirrups and the bit, and so on, you get that, or they supply that or you put that all together as well?

                 I put it all together.

                 Who makes that nowadays?

                 The brass buckles I use come from England.  I use a lot of brass English buckles.

                 Brass is better, than the steel?

                 Brass looks better on a horse, and it doesn’t rust, and just looks better.

                 And what about the bit and those sort of bits?

                 The trainers buy what type of bits they want.

                 What, and they just give it to you and you make it?

                 Yeah, I just make the bridle, and give them the bridle.

                 And they put it together, right.

                 They put it together.

                 So you’ve got two or three sewing machines, I can see.

                 Yeah.

                 And a set of tools.  You’ve got hammers here.  What are you using the hammers for?  [see photo]

                 Just to put little tacks in.  That’s a special saddler’s hammer.

                 A very fine head, yeah.

                 Yeah.  It’s all weighted.  It’s all weighted, so you can pick a tack up with one hand; you just touch it, and it goes bang.

                 And it'll go straight in, yeah.  Fine, small head.

                 Yeah.  It’s almost like a bootmaker’s hammer.

                 And then you’ve made yourself a beautiful leather strop for sharpening your - - -

                 My knife board, yeah.

                 How long have you had that? 

                 I've had that for about forty five years.

                 So you made it when you were a young apprentice?

                 When I was an apprentice.  I still haven’t wore it out yet, but I've worn a couple of knives out.

                 Yes, you would get through them … , yeah.  We’ll take a picture of them.  Would you just mind sharpening it, because it makes a beautiful noise, or it did before when I arrived.  Yes, it’s beautiful.

                 [Ringing sound of sharpening]

                 That’s when you know if you’ve got a good knife.

                 What, the ring?

                 It should ring like a tuning fork.

                 Yeah, it is – it’s a very fine ring.  And do you sharpen your little knives on the leather too?

                 Yeah.  But if you ever buy a knife, always give it a tap and if it don’t ring - - -

                 It’s not true.

                 - - - it’s not good steel.

                 Amazing.  And do you sharpen your ordinary little knives on that too?

                 Yeah, I sharpen all my tools.

                 All your tools.  Does that take quite a bit of time or it’s just part of the whole job – you just keep sharpening them?

                 I'd just keep sharpening them as I go.

                 Yeah, for each bit so that it’s really true.

                 You know, the only way you ever cut yourself’s with a blunt knife.

                 Because it slips when you're expecting it to cut through?

                 Because you're putting too much weight on it.

                 And you also demonstrated for me how the knife could cut a piece of leather in mid-air, so that’s pretty good.

                 Yeah.

                 And what do you like about working with leather?  Does it have a particular resonant thing for you?

                 I just enjoy it.  I enjoy just, having a side of leather, and just being able to build something out of it.

                 Craft something from it, yeah.

                 It’s like these days, I get a lot of chairs to do.

                 To put a leather seat in, on those sort of frame ones?

                 Yeah, put the leather seats in, because most of the upholsterers can’t even do it.

                 So you just showed me: you do frames that had old leather seats stretched across them and the upholsterers can’t do that now?

                 No, they can’t do it.

                 So you do that.  And what other things do people ask you to make for them, because you’ve had quite a few - - -

                 All sorts of things: from aprons, leather aprons, to menu covers for restaurants. 

                 And you make pouches for iPads?

                 Yeah, I make wallets, all sorts of things.  So I'm not just doing the one job, I'm doing many different jobs.

                 And do you enjoy that, the challenge of a new piece of work?

                 Yeah.  Last week, someone come in and wanted a rifle case made, so he can go shooting on his motorbike.  So I made the rifle case up.

                 Did you just make up a pattern out of your head, or did you have a photo? 

                 No, he just showed me a photo, and give me some measurements, and I just made it up.

                 And what did you make it out of?

                 I went and bought some cow leather, just like bridle leather, and just made it out of that.

                 I'll bet he was pleased.

                 Yeah, and we got it the next day.

                 Even more pleasing, yeah.

                 If I do something, I try to do it all quick.

                 Do you?  You just like to get the job done?

                 Get it done.  Otherwise, it'll be sitting around here for ages.

                 [Pause traffic noise]

                 So you like to get all the job done quickly?

                 Yeah.  Well, the customer likes to get the job back quick, and I don’t want to be tripping over it in the workshop.

                 So you like a clear desk, as it were?

                 Because I haven’t got a big enough area to work, so I like to move everything out as quick as I can.

                 Right, so you do one job and then it’s gone.

                 Yeah, it’s gone.

                 All packed away, yeah.  And you got asked by some film directors, or coordinators to make equipment for various films.  Can you tell me what?

                 Yeah.  I made all the leatherwork for The Great Gatsby.

                 And what did you make?

                 I made the handbag that they did the sting in.  I made all the leatherwork for the polo scenes.

                 The polo, right.

                 And in one of the scenes they had all, old-fashioned shaving cases, square shaving cases.

                 What, with the brush, yeah.

                 And I made all them.

                 You made replica ones of those?

                 Replica.

                 Wow.  What happened to them afterwards or you don't know?

                 They would have just went into storage.

                 Or given to the actors or whatever.  And I think I read you made golf clubs, those old leather great big bags that people lugged their golf clubs in.

                 The old-fashioned golf bags, yes.  And I made quills for – which film was it – the Wolverine.

                 Wolverine, right.  Quills?

                 For arrows.

                 Right.  Gosh, old-fashioned quivers for arrows.

                 Yeah, quivers – I had to make forty of them - - -

                 Forty, gosh.  How long did that take you?

                 - - - for one of those scenes.

                 More than a day?

                 Oh, yeah.  It took me about a week, week and a half.

                 And do you ever wake up and have a sort of idea and think you'll make something, out of the blue?

                 Yeah, I do that quite often.

                 What sort of ideas have you had?

                 All sorts, especially bags, just little odd things that people ask.

                 So you make them?

                 I'll think about it, then I'll go to sleep and I'll wake up and go, ‘I know how to do that easier.’

                 The idea’s there, yeah.  And do you have sort of leftover bits of leather and stuff?

                 Yeah, I don’t get that much.

                 So pretty much, you buy what’s going to fit the job?

                 Yeah.

                 What do you do with the scraps?  Do they have any purpose, or you use them for anything?

                 Not really.

                 No.  And so in your long career doing this, how many people have you taught to do saddlery?

                 I've only taught one boy.

                 And is he still working as a saddler?

                 Yeah, he’s still a saddler; he’s quite good.

                 So now you work on your own?

                 Yeah.

                 And do you like that – do you like working on your own?

                 Yeah, yeah.

                 Or did you enjoy having an apprentice – or it’s been so long?

                 Well, I taught many apprentices when I was apprenticed but, since then I've only had one apprentice, and he did his time with me, and I got him taught in about two and a half years, three years.

                 And then he moved on?

                 And he moved on.  He’s out in the country, making saddles himself.

                 That’s good, yeah.  And have you always had your workshop here at the racecourse?

                 No.  I used to be on Anzac Parade.

                 Whereabouts?

                 Just down past the Doncaster.

                 Right, just there.

                 And they wanted to build a block of units on the building, and the real estate just kept putting the rent up; it just kept jumping and jumping, and it got to the stage we weren’t taking enough money to pay the rent, so had to close down.

                 Moved on, yeah.  And was it easy to get a spot here?

                 It was fairly easy.  This used to be an old blacksmith’s shop.

                 And there are no blacksmiths here now?

                 Yeah, well there’s blacksmiths.

                 Not so many?

                 The old blacksmith who was in this shop, he moved on, and it come vacant, and I've just asked could I rent it, and I've been here for the last twenty years.

                 It suits you.  Well, you're right in the heart of – people know where to find you at least.

                 Yeah.  They don’t have to worry about parking; they just walk straight in.

                 No, that's true – well, if they're met at the gate, like I was.  And do people ever come to you to ask your opinion about a saddle?

                 All the time.

                 All the time, right.

                 All the time.

                 And what sort of things are they asking about?

                 They might have a saddle, the horse is getting a sore back, and they come and see me and ask me can I fix the saddle, or what type of saddle to use on the horse.

                 And when you look at a saddle, what are you looking at?  How do you test a good saddle?

                 I can usually tell the pressure points, where they rub the horse’s back, or if they sit too low on the horse’s wither, or give the horse a sore wither.

                 So does that mean then they need a different shape of saddle?

                 Different shaped saddle.

                 So can you reshape the saddle they’ve got?

                 Not really.

                 Not really.  You have to make a new one, yeah.  So you'd be helping a lot of people who had trouble with that.

                 Yeah.

                 And what about the jockeys?  Do they come and say, ‘Look, I can’t find a comfortable saddle.’ or ‘I've got this one, but this isn't working.’ and you can make a different one?

                 Well, usually if they bring something to me – a lot of the jockeys get saddles from overseas, and they don’t sit properly on a horse.

                 Because they're modelled on different types of horses?

                 No, just the way they're made.

                 Craftsmanship, yeah.

                 And I'll just tell them I'll make one for them instead.

                 It’s probably easier to start a new one, than try and touch up an old one.

                 Yeah.  It’s hard to alter, something that’s not right.

                 Yeah, that's true.  And do you have like a trademark that you put on your saddles?

                 Yeah, I have a little label with my name - - -

                 I'll get a picture of that later.

                 - - - with my name and address.

                 And you talked about – well, obviously not many people are making saddles, but you said the other day when I came to see you, the nearest saddle maker for Sydney was - - -

                 Dural.

                 - - - Dural, right.  Way out, yeah.  So you're the only one now in the City.

                 The only one within the City.

                 And there’s a few in the country but we can’t hope that they’ll carry on because it’s - - -

                 Well, they're all getting like me, starting to get older.

                 Yeah, and there’s no interest in doing it?

                 No.

                 Do you like making other things, Neale, apart from saddles and leatherwork?

                 Yeah, I'll make anything anyone brings me.

                 But in your home and things, do you like using your hands to do other things?

                 Yeah, I've always been good at making things. 

                 I mean do you make your own shelves?

                 No, no, no, no.

                 Not carpentry stuff?

                 No, no.

                 Only leather?  Leather’s your field, yeah.  It’s a great craft. 

                 You're wearing an apron that says ‘Saddlers and Harness Makers Association of Australia: Doing it properly.’  That’s good. [Saddle and Harness Makers Association of Australia Inc]

                 Yeah.

                 But tell me about the association?

                 It’s just an association of saddlers, and we have a meeting two or three times a year, and saddlers come from all over New South Wales to go there.  It’s just really to have a meet-up, all to have a meeting, and just talk about where we can buy the best leathers, and who’s the best supplier of the buckles, and things, like that.

                 Right, so it kind of keeps you in touch professionally - - -

                 Yeah.

                 - - - but also does it give you support in any way?  I mean if somebody wanted to find out something, they would go to - - -

                 They'd have their own website.

                 They’ve got their own website?

                 Website, yeah, with all the recommended saddlers, because a lot of people get a sewing machine and repair something, and then they call themselves a saddler.

                 And they haven’t had the full training?

                 And they’ve got no trade papers.

                 Yeah.  So in order to belong to the association, you have to have recognised - - -

                 Recognised saddler.

                 Right.  So you’ve got a certificate somewhere?

                 Yeah.  It’s right above you.

                 It’s behind me, right.  Good, yeah, and registered number, yeah.

                 And that was when I finished my apprenticeship.  That was in ’76, so that’s a long time ago now.

                 It’s still wearing well on the wall, touch wood.

                 It’s like a doctor’s certificate and that.

                  Yeah, that's right.  Well, most doctors have them.  Why not saddle makers?  That’s good.  And do you collect saddles?  I mean do you see old saddles and think, ‘Gosh, I've got to keep that.’?

                 No, not really.

                 No, you're not a collector, you're a creator, yeah – you like making them.

                 Yeah.

                 Can you tell me a bit about – because you're working right on the racecourse here, so there must be times when it’s very busy.  When’s that?

                 It’s very busy from three o'clock in the morning; from three o'clock to about half past eight, is the busiest time at the racecourse.

                 Because all the horses are exercising -  training.

                 All the horses are exercising, and all the staff’s here.  It’s a very busy area.

                 And when do you come to work particularly?

                 Sometimes I might come at four o'clock in the morning – depends on how big a job I've got on that day.

                 It’s nice because you’ve got your workshop; you're flexible.

                 And it’s quiet.

                 Yeah, you don’t get phone calls.

                 I can get work done.

                 Yeah, that's true.  And what about when an actual race is on – it must be packed here, isn't it?

                 It gets very busy over the other side, of the stand, but it’s pretty quiet around this here.

                 Yeah, because we’re on the High Street side and it’s mostly stables and services, yeah.

                 Yeah.

                 And you said there is still a blacksmith here?

                 Yeah, there’s two or three blacksmiths here.

                 Any other services here?

                 [Horse neighs]

                 No, just blacksmiths, saddler.  The vets are going to open up a practice here but that hasn’t happened yet.

                 They're not here yet – they're planning on it?

                 Yeah, because they were up at Inglis’, and, they’ve got to move out too.  So they're just trying to work out where they're going to put their veterinary practice.

                 Yeah, because they probably need quite a lot of stable space, don’t they? 

                 Yeah, they’ll need stable space, plus operating theatres.

                 Yeah, big thing to move.

                 Yeah.

                 Well, thank you very much, Neale.

                 That’s all right.

                 It’s been really interesting hearing about your trade and seeing your workshop.  And we’ll take a few photos now.

                 Yeah.

                 Thank you.

                 Thanks.